Let's Talk Change | Vittoria Burr | E001
The conversation with Vittoria Burr, Change Management Leader, covers a wide range of topics, including change management, leadership, and the impact of AI on organizations. It delves into the challenges of balancing change and resistance, the future of change management, and the importance of feedback and validation in communication. The discussion also explores the cultural impact of change and the evolving role of subject matter experts in the age of AI.
Takeaways
Balancing change and resistance is a critical challenge for leaders.
The future of change management will involve multidisciplinary teams and a dynamic interplay between humans and AI.
Chapters
00:00 Introducing Vittoria Burr and Background
05:45 Resistance to AI
15:02 Cultural Impact on Change
20:54 Future of Change Management
36:23 Feedback and ValidationMore About Us:
Connect with Vittoria Burr
Episode Transcript:
Vittoria (00:00)
Leading by example is the only thing you can do when you are in a team, part of the team, and you need to make the change. If you don't do it yourself, as the first person, then you...
cannot actually even help the rest to do make a change.
The way I think we and leaders looking around from in our companies, well, is by ⁓ little by little nudging people towards the right direction. So why don't you try it? you empower them to take the first step and see what works for them. If they experience it firsthand,
then probably they are more willing to go along If you say like you shall do it, you will work with AI, you know what that's gonna do. ⁓ You're not gonna bring the rest of the people with you.
Thank you Noa, thank you Ofir
Ofir (00:49)
So much for you.
Noa (00:50)
we are excited to have you with us, Vittoria I got to know you because you interviewed me to your podcast that you started during COVID. So that was exciting.
Vittoria (01:00)
Yeah, that's true. We're good all times. Exactly.
Noa (01:03)
became our kids' auntie in a way for teaching them Italian. So that was exciting and another thing that happened. that peer-to-peer power that happens right now, you are the best peer for our kids. So ⁓ tell the audience that listens, ⁓ how would you describe your expertise?
Vittoria (01:21)
Well, I have been a consultant for some time now. So actually to give you a little bit of a background, I am working around 10 years for different companies in the Netherlands. I started as a risk manager, but you know, as life goes, things change and life throws brought me to change management around five, six years ago. So that's what I'm doing at the moment.
I've been a solution consultant, so actually an IT expert for four to five years now. And recently I have made a switch, actually a double switch to becoming the leader of the team I was into. So that has been kind of a big change. And also I have been appointed as a program leader for my company's attitude towards access management. So it's been, yeah. ⁓
It's a bit of a challenge, in terms of what I'm doing, a whole lot of change management. So that's how you can sum my expertise at the moment.
Noa (02:23)
It's kind of funny because you said there was a lot of change in your life and that so you are definitely an expert not just in change in in the organizations, but also in your personal life.
Vittoria (02:30)
you
Yeah, exactly. So that's the basic recipe of my life. I probably you hear it from my accent. I am not a native English speaker. I'm Italian. I've been living in the Netherlands for 14 years, something of the kind. And indeed, yeah, what you say, Noa is correct. Change is basically an everyday thing of my life.
Noa (02:57)
So.
Ofir (02:58)
How much of your personal experience in change moving between countries is applicable to your day-to-day life as a change management consultant inside a company?
Vittoria (03:11)
a whole lot actually is what you say, there is a link of course with what I've been going through personally and in my job as well, because that, I mean having to do with different settings and different backgrounds, it requires a certain amount of adaptability. And if you think about it from a personal experience, but also on work term relation, yeah, you need to actually get and hit around ground running.
Basically what you need to do is take your baggage, learn to adapt quickly. Don't be scared by taking the next step. I think this is probably something you hear a lot from your own perspectives as well, right? So when you do change management, yeah, you don't know what is coming towards you. The only thing you can do is take a step and not really be scared about what is coming. And that reflects on a daily basis to what we are doing because...
Probably you hear it from your own experiences as well. I'm actually curious to hear how you do it. But we are in a very changing world at the moment. AI is coming towards us. mean, we recently had recently, 10 years ago now, we started an entire change towards clouds, of course. If I talk about my own experience with IT, I mean, you don't really know what is coming, but you...
you see it and the only thing you can do is embracing it. well, because indeed from your perspective, maybe Ofir on your side, how does that reflect to your clients as well?
Ofir (04:39)
the podcaster taking over. I resonate with what you're saying about AI and the step-forward clouds, because coming from an IT background myself, in IT even 20 years ago, if you don't learn and evolve all the time, you're staying behind. kind of staying steady in the same place, in the same level of knowledge requires you to learn all the time. Today with AI, it's
probably 10 or even 100 times faster. But this process in this space especially is consistent over time all through the last couple of decades.
Vittoria (05:16)
Yeah, absolutely. And what you see happening is that indeed, in the beginning, there is a lot of skepticism. I don't know, maybe Noa, you see it from a people's perspective as well. If I remember correctly, we had a year at home with a couple of friends of ours, we had this kind of conversation about AI. It was two years ago, and it was the first time that chat GPT was in the news.
And I remember my husband was saying at the time like, yeah, this is going to change entirely. And we were discussing with friends and he was saying like, what, when did IT ever had an impact on our lives? I mean, this is never going to happen. And maybe it will, but in 20 years from now. Well, it's 2026 and I mean, who doesn't use AI nowadays? It's, ⁓ that's how it goes with that. it's a.
Noa (06:04)
curious
to ask you from the human perspective. So it's interesting, you know, you're talking about the IT I did what you do today with organizations when they moved from paper. Yeah, paper to technology. And I know that the people that were resistant the most were the experts that technology will take the expertise from them.
And actually with AI now, I see more of the younger generation resisting the AI. So at least that's my observation. I'm curious what you two see in the space of resistance or not for AI or partnering with AI. What do you notice from the inside?
Vittoria (06:47)
Yeah, actually it's very interesting because indeed if you look at it, what you say Noa is correct. Younger people are more easy to go about with AI. So they are happy to explore and you see it in the workplace as well. well, if AI can help us, why did we want to work less efficiently like we used to?
But I have to say that it's kind of interesting is that the older generation, probably the less flexible people that you have in an organization that have been working there for a long time, they also start to see that there is some benefit to it. the beginning, of course, probably you see it across the entire change management paradigm. It's always doubting. I mean, like, does this even work? But...
I this is such an important change and this impacts us, every one of us, so much that they are even embracing it. And they go together with the younger generation to make the change possible. Of course, with some skepticism, but that's part of the deal. mean, like, you don't get to bring everybody along at the same time, at the same pace.
Ofir (07:49)
So
how do you approach this process when you're trying to bring in a change and deal with the resistance, the fear, the concerns that people have?
Vittoria (07:58)
Yeah, do I have to say? I don't have the golden solution. Actually, not at all, just yet. I think it's the only thing I can say from my experience is that you need to have some role models. Actually, leading by example is the only thing you can do when you are in a team, part of the team, and you need to make the change. If you don't do it yourself, as the first person, then you...
cannot actually even help the rest to do make a change. So what we do actually in our company is we want to work with AI and we want to make it one of the spear points of our strategy going forward. So we want to instill it into all kinds of aspects of our life. But of course, we don't have the knowledge just yet. So how do we do it? I think...
⁓ the only thing we can do at the moment before we take the leap, of course, is to make people sensitive to the topic. Of course, sometimes at the risk that people get a little bit frustrated because you hear AI, for example, in this case, and it seems as if AI is going to solve all kinds of problems we have. And sometimes it feels also like a bingo word, like, yeah, we do it with...
AI or why don't you do it with AI? And that is where it gets a little bit tricky. The way I think we and leaders looking around from in our companies, well, is by little by little nudging people towards the right direction. So why don't you try it? You give them, you empower them to take the first step and see what works for them. If they experience it firsthand,
then probably they are more willing to go along mostly the other way around doesn't work. If you say like you shall do it, you will work with AI, you know what that's gonna do. You're not gonna bring the rest of the people with you. So that's currently the challenge, but I think that's the way we want to approach it.
Ofir (09:52)
What I hear from what you're saying is that you're taking kind of a top-down approach where leadership is providing with different opportunities, Leadership is identifying where the teams can potentially leverage AI to benefit from the capabilities. How do you balance, you mentioned not to force people, how do you balance this
suggested and basically if you see in other areas that it's successful you want more people to adopt it versus getting people to feel that you're forcing them into using AI and dealing with their fear and this. How is this balance being managed?
Vittoria (10:36)
It's a very thin balance indeed. You have to give and take and you have to also try to let people lead themselves. If you give them the tools and you make it up to them. for example, why don't you try to solve this issue? How can AI work for you? You don't have to actually provide the solution, but only the tools.
to it possible so that they can take the step and actually make the choice themselves to adopt AI or not. Because if they find out how much that can work for them, they are more likely to use it going forward. And they might not feel the resistance of having to do that if I say it or if my manager says it.
And ⁓ mostly that also has to do with the type of company we have, the sense of hierarchy. I mean, I don't know how is it with you guys. I mean, in the US, the situation is probably a little bit different than in Europe. In our company where ⁓ we have a hierarchy, but we don't feel it that much. So that means that if a leader says we do it, then you still have the possibility to challenge it and to give your own turn to it.
But how does it work with you? Do you see the same happening on your side of the ocean?
Ofir (11:51)
I think it really depends on the industry. I work in the software industry and the software industry is very common and encouraged for people to have, know, bring their own flair, right? And so have their own opinion and try and experiment in their own way. The reason that I ask about top down versus bottom up approach is
that I see different in different ways, right? Some companies are pushing it from leadership down and forcing harder or not. Other companies are saying the tools are available for you and encouraging people to explore and find their own ways to use the tools, which, know, there are pros and cons to both ways, right? But in what I've seen so far and what I hear from my peers in the industry is
When you give the teams, especially when you work with a population that is more technical and more kind of adventurous in nature, they're finding ways to leverage the existing tools that if you wait for leadership to find all those ways, it will take you significantly longer. Because at end of the day, people on the ground, people that are actually doing each one of the roles, they know best what they need, where they're challenged, where they're spending the most time.
So they will go and find solutions to the pain point that they have, which usually is either tasks that are taking a long time or tasks that are repeatable that they don't like doing over and over again. Whereas in leadership, the perspective is sometimes different because you look at it as a whole task and not break down the specific things that might have different tools that can help them.
Noa (13:41)
Can I ask you both a question because you talked about the cultures and Ophir you work in a global, always mostly worked in global companies, Vitoria you are in the global experience. So that's another layer of leading change. What is important for leaders to understand about
this layer and if, and if you want to share a little bit about Italian culture or the Neverland culture, because you mentioned something very interesting about the way it works, with the change processes in global culture, because it's different than company that is just U.S. or just Italian.
Vittoria (14:20)
Yeah, or Dutch in this case, because it helps to tell you the truth. I don't really know how the situation is going on in Italy because I'm not that much in touch with that. As we are operating in the Netherlands mostly, and that's where I'm working now, the situation is that we have actually leadership that puts the dot on the horizon. that is, I think this is what you would expect from leaders to do.
looking ahead and I think that really works if you give something to work towards to it's different from expecting ⁓ people from working the way you want and I think that is also something that is really needed to have a good change in organization or an organization in change management. You work towards a goal altogether the way you
do it and you let your people experience it ⁓ makes a difference. So I think that is also the way we are at the moment in our company. letting people experience it so that people can deliver the change instead of having somebody that says, do it, we do it this way and these are the conditions. I think that's also talking about it personally, that is the condition I worked the best in.
I don't really like to have some very strict guidelines that's a bit reducing your creativity and your sense of ownership as well, of course.
Ofir (15:40)
Yeah, and I think to double down on this, overall, I think the approach needs to be similar because as a global company, you want to drive initiatives in a consistent way. And if the same team is operating in different countries and different cultures, you still have the same business goal and you expect from them the same business outcomes.
where you need to be very conscious of the different cultures that you're working with is when you go down to the motivations, right? So you can have the same way that at home, you can have three kids that each one of them have different drivers to get to the same goal. So at work is the same thing, right? Like when we work in a work environment, ⁓ every employee have different motivations. It's a personal thing, but also there are cultural impact.
Different countries have different cultural motivations that get people to adopt new things, try new things, or to operate in one way or another. So that's something that you need to be conscious and differentiate between countries.
Noa (16:46)
And I will just add Erin Mayer, which is my, love her. talks culture, even in the U S we forget that sometimes it's small countries, big countries. have different cultures. So Netherlands, New York city, well, the, why the region is people that came from, from the Netherlands. So it's more direct in the style.
Vittoria (17:00)
day.
Noa (17:07)
⁓ If you compare it to the Midwest in the US where people came from Scandinavia, I know Fy read a great book about that. I can't remember the name.
Ofir (17:15)
Yeah, it's a
Noa (17:17)
We'll put it in the podcast, ⁓ how you call it, the show notes. So they came from Scandinavia. So they are more, you know, polite and will answer differently. They will be less direct. So even in the US, we have different cultures and it's important to pay attention to because company in New York that the you know, the spaces in New York City might be different than
in other spaces, even in the US, without going into the global experience. So it's interesting, even so many years after, how it impacts us in our communication and change.
Vittoria (17:53)
but that is interesting because how you know on your perspective, indeed, from a people's perspective and what you see happening. If you look at the Midwest or some areas in the US that are much less in line with what happens with the big cities where the hustle and bustle is going on. Do you see them embracing change in the same way and at the same pace or do you experience something else?
Noa (18:15)
I think it's hard to answer this question because companies are, you know, people moving all over the place. If we look at, are right now located in North Carolina and most of the people are from California and New York. So it's the same with the companies in the U S unless they are locally based. But Ofir, maybe you have a different perspective than me. So I think it's very hard, but you can, when I, when I work with an executive team and they shared their
origin, can see also how they communicate with each other to probably understand where they come from. are also different accents in the US. It's everywhere in the world, by the way. It's little things that you get to understand when you work in the side of the human. I want to ask you, Vitoria, what do you think the change management world will look like in ⁓
5, 10 years, what will be different if at all?
Vittoria (19:12)
there is a million dollar question.
Noa (19:15)
I that I used to dot on the horizon. So now I'm asking you.
Vittoria (19:19)
Yeah, exactly how will it look like? think actually the world might look a little bit different from now, mostly because with what is happening in the moment, so many new things happening, so many new ways people are connected with each other. And I mean, like we talked about AI, we are talking about new changes in the way we want to, for example, talk about strategy around at our own company or the way actually even politics might shape.
The future. think what I see happening is that in five years from now talking about change management, we might go towards actually a more interlacing of domains and actually specialties working together before now.
⁓ We used to work in different containers. So I mean, I was doing IT and this person was doing logistics and stuff. In the future, I think it's going to be much more intertwined. Mostly because now we can easily get to information and sources are everywhere. So you can think in different perspectives as well, which means that probably in five years from now, 10 years from now.
we might want to experience new things that we didn't right now see happening. So teams are going to be much more multidisciplinary, I think, or at least if I look at my own perspective, they are going to be mixed as well. it's going to be, we were talking about it with a couple of colleagues a few weeks ago. And probably this is something you have heard before, but it's going to be probably a mix between human connection, but also
semi robotics working together with it. yeah, we were discussing about it. How do we make sure that our beliefs are up to date that you add some, yeah, people knowledge, people flair to it, but that you can also combine it with some extra efficiency given by AI agents or this kind of thing. So I think it's going to be
much more complex in terms of relations. It's not going to be just colleagues one-on-one or colleagues in different domains, also indeed colleagues, robotics, but also indeed much more multidisciplinary.
Noa (21:23)
Yeah, I'm actually really curious to see how it will impact leadership and human connection when we'll have, I do think we'll see teams that are mixed with AI agents or whatever we're going to call them and humans. And what does it look going to look like that leaders like Ophir and you will lead agents with humans and
There are so many questions that I have there, but we're not going to go into that because you see I'm getting excited about that topic. Yeah, I'm curious from leadership skills and who will be the person to be promoted in those situations. So I think that's a very interesting topic.
Vittoria (22:02)
But also interesting and I don't know how you think about it, How do you make sure that people are still motivated to go above and beyond now that there is going to be the chance to have some robotics next to it? And what if all the knowledge is already there? Where can you make the difference as a person? Where is going to be the extra edge? So is it going to be given by your culture or the way you approach things? Is it going to be attitude instead of
knowledge? or I don't know do you see anything happening already in in these terms?
Noa (22:35)
My dot on the horizon is that Subject matter experts will not be the ones to be promoted. That will be the biggest change because the expertise will be in the machine. We can see today, right? We can go and ask them and they can pull the expertise that you would go to ask the subject matter expert. So I'm not going to go into all of that, but
There has to be a different way for people to shine. And I think it will be more by asking questions like you do right now and that human building relationships with other humans, because that will be the best, the most crucial need from the human side, because the machine has the subject matter expertise. So I think it will change. The ones to shine will have to show other skills to be seen.
and be promoted and they will have the human skills because the human will need always the human when they have problems So that's what I see moving forward.
Vittoria (23:32)
Yeah, that's absolutely. Actually, what you say a subject matter expert. I never really thought about it this way, but indeed, yeah, where can these people now that they make the difference in organizations, mostly because they have also organization specific knowledge, but indeed, when this paradigm shift is going to take place, how do we need them and which role is going to be for them?
Noa (23:57)
The new kind of like the subject matter expert who's going to be that new show up in a new way. Yeah, it was. Yeah.
Vittoria (24:03)
Thank
And that's an opportunity and also sometimes a risk on a personal perspective. So I can imagine that on a personal side that might give a lot of that might raise some questions from people working with us and yeah, how what does the world look like for them? So, yeah.
Noa (24:24)
Yeah, so, Vittoria, we want to thank you for this really, really important and interesting conversation that I think leaders can take so much from. And mostly we end the episodes with reflection from a fear and I, but since we know you for so long, would you like to join the party? Of course. We are still with the morning coffee. You are almost at dinner time, right?
⁓
changing, we're transitioning into the reflection moment because we say that this is part of the peer to peer repel that we find that, again, with change, people are so much in the go, go, go, and there are so many changes that people don't have time to reflect. So I will start with your fear because you were a little bit more quiet in the last few moments. What?
What is your biggest takeaway from the conversation with Vittoria?
Ofir (25:24)
think that the balance that Vittoria mentioned and finding the balance between getting people motivated and implementing more technology into their workflows is really important. I think we're now in a really important moment in time.
that leaders need to figure out how to manage this balance, how to manage it in a way that on one hand, there is big pressure and we see it's almost everywhere to get better results, more efficiency and do it faster than ever before. But there is also a lot of pressure and concerns from the employees about what does it mean to me? And this...
balance that leaders need to create in their teams between improving the technology and leveraging that, but also making their team motivated to use that technology and finding and redefining their own roles is really kind fascinating moment that needs to happen. And the next couple of years will really change this dynamic.
leaders that will be able to, in my opinion, to manage this balance effectively and keep their teams motivated to adopt more and more of the technology advancements will be the leaders of the future.
Noa (26:52)
Yeah, I want to stay for a moment with the word balance because balance is such an annoying word. Right. I actually heard the CEO of apps flyer and Israeli company where he said, I don't see balance in life. I see where I'm present right now and where I put my efforts. And I really loved it because
So I don't know, at least in life and work balance is like I'm present now with all of you. So I'm bringing my full safe here, but I can't be in another space right now. So what do you think about that balance word? How leaders will deal with that? Because there is so much, so much tension. And for God's sake, when I ask leaders like Ophir, how many change processes your people went through in the last three months?
And there's just like, count like, Vittoria, you probably, it's just like, when I think about processes that I consulted with other companies, it was like every three years, there was a different change process. Like they will bring ERP and it will take three years to implement it. And reorg will happen every also three, five years restructure of organization. Today is just so intense.
And that's something that taking it back to the balance, what are your thoughts?
Vittoria (28:14)
Well, it's gonna be the balancing act indeed. It's how do you find a moment of stableness as well in that balance because indeed the balance is not only gonna be like doing both at the same time but how do you make sure that you have a stability in there as well. I think, well, but that's a really difficult question in that respect. Yeah.
Noa (28:36)
I saw you smiling with fear, so push back on me because that's why we're doing that, right? We love to argue with each other.
Ofir (28:43)
I think even saying I'm here in the present, this is where I am in the present, is relative, right? I'm here relative to being there before or being there after, right? So it's like, it's a different way to look at balance. And then it's a relationship management. It's the connection that people in the team have to their technology and to their peers.
needs to be managed. You want to call it balance, want to call it in a different way. That's the challenge today, right? Because especially if we're talking about little in the future, we'll have a team that is half agents and half humans. You need to find a way to create this relationship within this group. And again, I tend to use the word balance for this, but you can call it differently. You need to
create a dynamic that works, that doesn't push too much in one way or another and optimize the way that the teams can operate where everyone needs to be satisfied. We're thinking always about making sure that the humans are satisfied and happy. If you work with a prompt that doesn't get what they want, right? Like the information that they need.
that's what they want and what makes them happy, they're not going to give you good results and they're not going to be happy and they're going to tell you, give you error messages and things like that. So it's not just keeping people satisfied and give people the tools and the information and the motivation that they need. The technology also needs to have the same thing. And again, the motivation is different obviously between people and agents, but both of them needs to...
fit in a place that allows them to be successful. We're all, think everyone, this is something that I hear from a lot of people. Everyone are having conversations with Chetjupiti and Claude and hearing them saying, oh yeah, I was wrong. Oh yeah, I was lying. It's, if you don't give them what they want, if you don't give the agents clarity, guidance, set expectations properly of what the outcome should look like, you're not going to get good outcomes from them.
And it's exactly the same challenge that managers have with their employees, the human employees.
Noa (30:58)
I just love what you're saying right now. ⁓ You see, I wrote it down because, Vittoria, tell me if you resonate. know that I don't think change management changed. I do that for almost 30 years in different ways. The theory didn't change. The emotions around change didn't change. But what you said is exactly, and you know,
I'm so excited so I can't think right now, but the guidance, the setting expectations, and what was the third thing that you said?
Ofir (31:30)
giving them the right motivation.
Noa (31:34)
So the same thing that we do with the machine, we have to do with human beings and nothing changed. It's the same. And whenever we skip a step, we don't get what we want and we don't get what we want from the AI. So I love what you were saying and I had more thoughts, but they disappear. So Vittoria, I will pass the ball to you.
Vittoria (31:58)
Well, I absolutely agree. that's the thing that you were saying, absolutely, the fact that you have to keep pushing on different keys to make it work, that is going to be absolutely the major key. But also, what was popping into my mind was how do you facilitate that change? Because indeed, it's not only going to be our colleagues that need to get help to get to the other step, but
⁓ maybe from a coaching experience as well, how do you make sure that people get the right support in leading such an important change? Because this is something we didn't experience ever. So who is gonna give leaders the right tools to make it work?
Noa (32:36)
Yeah. And now I remember what I wanted to say that when I talk about it with leaders, some of them will say, I do that so well with the AI now, but I forget to do it with my people. And I find it so interesting when I have those one-on-one conversations with leaders. We go to the AI and we ask the questions, can we do the same thing with the people around us? And again,
I think it's just really, really interesting. ⁓
Ofir (33:05)
I think
what AI is doing in this now is AI is giving us immediate feedback. When we put in the right information that AI is expecting and that's even, you know, 10 years ago, still when you go into a line of code and you write something that is wrong, you immediately get the error. So you immediately get this feedback. And part of the challenge that they always have with their teams is you can
speak with an employee and you feel that you gave them clear guidance, if they're not challenging you and saying, that's not clear, I'm not sure if I understand it or what you described is not clear to me, then we think that we gave them the perfect feed of information, but then they go and do something that is different because they didn't understand either because they don't understand that the gap exists or because they're
not comfortable telling their leader that what they said is wrong or not clear. AI doesn't have this problem, right? AI is direct and giving you immediate feedback. So that's why it's easier to your point to kind of to work, to build this relationship much faster and get the results much faster. But this is where leaders need to change and make sure that they're asking their teams.
for feedback and validating that people understand what was asked. And it takes a little bit more effort than it does with machines. But you can get much better results and much more effective results from humans than you can get from machines.
Noa (34:41)
And I will just say that I got into bumping my head in the wall with CHATGPT and then I said, can you just explain to me what am I doing that you don't get me? So I wish we would do that more with humans and it gave me very clear instructions of what I need to do differently. So maybe if like me, you don't always communicate well with the machine, it's an opportunity to ask where are you not clear?
and then maybe see where you can move that into conversations with human beings because maybe you do it the same way with them. Vittoria, last words. What would you like to say before we say goodbye and thank you? What would you like to share with us?
Vittoria (35:26)
Well, of course, I absolutely love talking to you about this topic, guys. And please let me know when you go on with the podcast and everything and keep me involved. I would love to hear about all kinds of perspectives you're going to go through because this is really crucial to us all. I mean, we are all professionals and we are working in different kinds of organizations. So, yeah, please share these stories as much as you can because then we can all learn from it.
Noa (35:51)
Yeah, that's absolutely. Yeah. And, Vittoria, how people can connect with you.
Vittoria (35:57)
Well, they can reach out to me via LinkedIn. I think that's the easiest way. I'm not a very good social media person, but I think that is a fair way to do that. So yeah, please reach out if you have any questions.
Noa (36:12)
So thank you so much. was an enlightening conversation Ofir Thank you. Always enjoying arguing and conversing with you. Great peer-to-peer conversation. Let's keep doing that. And if you want to learn more and ask more, Feel free to share this episode with your peers and your friends and keep reflecting on this conversation with your teams and your peer leaders. Let's create the peer-repel effect. Cheers.
Ofir (36:41)
Thank you so much.
Vittoria (36:42)
Thank you.
